Most of you who read this blog take a very keen interest in advanced statistics. If you don't fully understand what goes into the win shares per 48 minutes statistic, you at least know that .200 is really good. Points don't matter unless they're supplemented by low shot attempts and cashing in from the line and behind the arc. You probably can't listen to WIP, can't talk to your friendly but ignorant barber about the Sixers, and will never be able to publicly discuss Andre Iguodala and his contract without first ingesting a heavy dose of psychotropic ethanol. Odds are, you're a basketball elitist.
Jason Concepcion, at SB Nation explains it better:
Those of us that follow the league like a religion; who have used advanced stats to illustrate a point; who discuss the league on Twitter or have a basketball blog...we represent maybe two percent of sports fans with an interest in the NBA. The rest of the world does not think of the game as we do nor do they perceive the league as we do. We are the clerks in High Fidelity and everyone else just wants to buy the latest LMFAO album.
Respect. But there's hope! Of the few reasons he gives, this hits closest to home.
Understand who you arguing with and where the arguments with which you are countering come from. The discord arises from the hoopheads' use of stats and analysis and the casual fans can simply, inexplicably, illogically and very humanly be drawn to a player for any number of reasons not having to do with stats. Don't penalize players because a great number of people think differently then you.
Have you found that, since becoming a more active NBA fan (i.e. not just watching ESPN and most of the games), you've been unable to talk to other, less knowledgeable people about it? This spans across the board for me. I can have an actual person-to-person conversation about basketball, baseball, and football with less people than I can feel comfortable getting naked in front of. How's your conversational fandom?
0 recs | 39 comments
Let's be honest
Andre Iguanadalanalala is the most overrated player ever. He doesn’t score 20ppg so he doesn’t deserve to be in the All-Star game and Lou Williams who scores 17ppg, 5 points higher than Igualanisha’s 12ppg. I mean we should just straight up trade him for a big man, plug in ET and it’ll all be status quo and we’ll beat the heat and win it all this year because I’ve been a fan since January 2012 and have watched 6 games since then. Lou Will made his first mil before he ever got laid. That automatically makes him the best ever.
I was listening to the radio this morning and my personal LWHAI is rising because of the sheer stupidity of people that argue his relative value compared to Dre. I’m so tired of “fans”.
soman319 - February 15, 2012
Lou Williams who scores 17ppg, 5 points higher than Igualanisha’s 12ppg, should be going*
soman319 - February 15, 2012
That’s funny I flipped on the radio and I heard some caller on 97.5 make literally that argument word for word. Lou Williams should be an all-star cuz he averages 5 more than Iguodala. I don’t understand it at all. Does the casual WIP caller not even take things like rebounding, passing and defense into account? Those are fundamental aspects of the game of basketball. Sure, I don’t expect the caller to even bother looking up the fact that Lou shoots the ball three more times a game than Iggy, but wouldn’t a caller at least look up basic stats like rebounds and assists where Iggy trumps Lou? Do people seriously just look at points per game and that’s it? Cuz I mean even a look at the most basic stats like rebounds, assists, steals, blocks, FG% show that Iguodala is a much more complete player even to the most casual fan. And I think watching one game can tell you Iguodala is a much better defender, but that’s a whole different animal…
FooFighter1124 - February 15, 2012 via mobile
Yes
I find it hard to talk to the few Sixers fans here in western Pa because most come off as a WIP fan.
Ben16 - February 15, 2012
I think if you spend so much time looking at stats that you miss what makes a real difference. You never get the information you need, because the coach never gives you enough data.
You want to see who is better Evan or Jodi? Then play Evan with the people Jodi does and vice-versa. Then you can have an objective view of the difference to the team when one plays over the other.
Stats don’t make you enjoy the game more, it doesn’t even make you a better fan. It just gives you another way to look at the game. If you understand basketball, you don’t need stats to tell you who is good or not, it just sounds better, backed by factual analysis of the game.
RickoT - February 15, 2012
They DID play Evan with the people Jodie plays with...
For the first 4 weeks of the season, they did a LOT of JTI to close games. Looked pretty f’n good to me.
bebopdeluxe - February 15, 2012
We have almost 300 minutes of a sample of Turner playing with Iguodala this season. That is a fairly significant sample. They had a +/- of +0.064 per minute.
We’ve had 360+ minutes of Turner and Jrue playing together this season. +0.249 per minute.
Meeks with Iguodala is +0.223 per minute. Meeks with Jrue is +0.258.
By the numbers it appears that it makes no difference as to whether Turner or Meeks is playing with Jrue. However, it appears that Meeks is a much better match to play with Iguodala.
yosoysean - February 15, 2012
This is where raw stats can fail, IMO...
I would think that the majority of the minutes that Turner and Iguodala played together was where when JTI closed out games…Turner did not have the luxury of playing any of those blowout 3rd quarter minutes that Meeks did with Jrue and Iguodala. The only time that JTI closed out games was when the score was relatively close – otherwise Turner was closing out games with the deep bench, while Iggy had a towel over his head between Jrue and EB.
I will freely admit that – as a bit of an old-school 51-year-old – I still value the “gut feel” or “my eyes tell me” way of looking at things as much as the new statistical world that is sweeping sports like basketball and baseball. I recognize that there IS value in this form of analysis, but – as with baseball – looking at stats in a vacuum, without adding additional perspective as to some of the limitations of this analysis, leaves me wanting.
bebopdeluxe - February 15, 2012
So only close scenario situations count and not the rest of tbe game that may or may not lead to those situations? Gotcha.
jefu - February 15, 2012 via mobile
Nope
My point was that the majority of JTI minutes were – because of the substitution rotations that were in place for the first 3-4 weeks of the season – in the 4th quarter…Turner would come in for Iguodala late in the 3rd, and then Iguodala would come in for either Lou or Meeks with, say, 7-8 minutes to go in the game…unless the Sixers were up by 20+ points at that point in the game – which they frequently were…which led to Turner trying to herd cats with the mop-up crew.
When Iguodala came back into the game in the 4th quarter and JTI closed the deal, games were generally closer….at which point anything could happen, of course…they could add to the lead, hold serve, or – as happened in the Denver game – give up the lead. But my point is that while the Jrue/Meeks/Iguodala group ALWAYS started the 3rd quarter (and statistically, they all benefitted from those frequent 3rd quarter blowouts), JTI in the 4th quarter only happened if the game was NOT a blowout…so Turner could not potentially benefit from Iguodala and Jrue being out with him to make a 20 point lead (the lead that they frequently created in the 3rd quarter while Turner was on the bench) a 35 point lead.
One grouping ALWAYS happened. The other grouping was SITUATION-DEPENDENT. Meeks always played with Jrue and Iguodala in the 3rd quarter when the starters were putting the wood to the opposing team. Meeks frequently played with Turner in the 4th quarter, when it was scrub-central garbage time.
That is why it is tricky to compare some of these groupings. The only TRUE way to determine which group is better is to limit the variable – in this case, have a group of observations at the start of each half with Jrue, Meeks and Iguodala, and have a group of observations with JTI at the start of each half…which has never happened, and likely won’t happen any time soon.
bebopdeluxe - February 15, 2012
This ranks at about a 9.8 on the RickoMeter. Only missing Speights to make it a round 10.
Michael Levin - February 15, 2012
Marreese
…is averaging 7.4 ppg in 21.6 minutes. That means….that if they just would just give him some real playing time he could score 20 ppg easy …he would only need..carry the two…58.4 minutes per game to do it!!!
SacNasty - February 15, 2012
The High Fidelity reference is especially funny to me because I was just looking up clips from that movie a couple of days ago on a whim.
Sports are one of those topics that I don’t get into serious discussion with people offline because people tend to get highly opinionated. I’ll make some general comments, like saying that Iguodala is one of the best wing defenders in the league, but I don’t get deep into things. It helps that I like to have stats to back up my statements and it’s much more difficult to look them up when you’re talking to someone offline.
yosoysean - February 15, 2012
Luckily some of my good friends appreciate stats and advanced stats, so with them I can discuss NBA.
But I am more of an NBA fan now than I have ever been, but I probably talk about it less because the way I think about it is very different from most people I interact with. I’m not a baseball stat-head, but I have a friend who is and I appreciate his struggles now that I have seen them through my own NBA prism.
Your comparison to the clerks in High Fidelity is pretty perfect. Referencing that movie probably makes you even more elitist too. Love that movie.
NOLACuse - February 15, 2012
One might call High Fidelity a top 5 romantic comedy of all-time.
yosoysean - February 15, 2012
I didn’t love High Fidelity. Does that make me weird? And I normally enjoy anything with Lisa Bonet.
Dave Rueter - February 15, 2012
It probably doesn’t make you weird. It’s not a movie for everyone. You wouldn’t understand. ;)
yosoysean - February 15, 2012
Hah – well played.
Dave Rueter - February 15, 2012
I was listening in on two bossaholics at a bar the other night
heatedly discuss how the Knicks are going to “win it all this year” because of Lin, and at the same time talk about how the Sixers are so hamstrung by Iguodala’s MASSIVE contract, and that Lou Williams should be an All-Star over Iguodala because Iguodala can’t shoot.
I don’t mind if a true fan of any team chooses not to spend the time to indulge themselves with advanced stats, I loosely do myself. Its the people who regurgitate perception and headlines with a passion without forming an educated opinion of their own that bother the bejesus out of me.
HossBoss - February 15, 2012
Effing this, man. Rec’d.
Michael Levin - February 15, 2012
I also eff this in the form of a recommendation.
jefu - February 15, 2012
Couldnt agree anymore with this. I actually have to remove myself from basketball conversations with friends for this reason.
Im no expert by any means, but i have learned so much since coming here and other sites.
It still shocks me how some people (cough Ricko cough) frequent blogs all the time and still seem to learn little if anything.
jefu - February 15, 2012 via mobile
I’m fairly “lucky” in that none of my friends of family members have more than a passing interest in basketball.
My post about avoiding heavy sports talk is more about baseball and football though.
yosoysean - February 15, 2012
A while ago I linked a LB article on facebook defending Iggy...
and the response I got from a self proclaimed huge fan off all philly sports was “With the NBAs tough salary cap, 5 years 80M for a wing who can’t average 20 points/game is a lot no matter how good a defender/distributor he is”
SacNasty - February 15, 2012
followed by...
he takes some reallly, really dumb shots brotha. he is a beast defender and gets pretty good stats. i just wish he didnt think he was kobe bryant
SacNasty - February 15, 2012
The “think he’s Kobe” thing is probably the worst thing someone can say to me about the Sixers.
A close second right now is “Collins has a grudge against Turner.”
yosoysean - February 15, 2012
He doesn’t have a grudge, HE HATES HIM.
Michael Levin - February 15, 2012
Seriously though. Do people think that an NBA coach, who hasn’t had a head coaching job in several years, would do something to intentionally make his team worse because of a personal vendetta? Does this thinking come from reality?
yosoysean - February 15, 2012
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpBjJ0dp2mc
Michael Levin - February 15, 2012
Well played, sir.
bebopdeluxe - February 15, 2012
See what happens when you post things for all morons to see? It doesn’t matter how much truth is in an given article, most people will believe what they want to believe until a majority of the populace convinces them otherwise.
jefu - February 15, 2012
I put up a fanpost/Poll: DeathMatch 2.0 Lou vs Lin
http://www.libertyballers.com/2012/2/15/2800268/deathmatch-2-0-lin-vs-lou-whos-the-boss-edition
Apparently it is a moral and quasi-legal requirement for every sports blog to dedicate an article to all things Linsanity… so I figured why not compare Lin’s incredibly small sample size but huge usage rate to our own resident Boss of Philly…
tk76 - February 15, 2012
You don't need to understand advanced statistics to not be an idiot
The WIP-style fans don’t just pay attention at all. You don’t have to understand win shares or PER to get that 12 points on 12 shots is worse than 12 points on 4 or 5 shots.
Dan Pearson - February 15, 2012
I wish the Sixers agreed with you…if a team takes the 3rd least shots from 0-3 feet and the 3rd MOST shots from 10-23 feet, it would certainly limit the amount of times someone could score 12 points on 5 shots.
bebopdeluxe - February 15, 2012
You know that other than Lou, no other Sixer takes more long 2’s per minute than Evan Turner.
16-23 ft jumpers Per 40 min:
Lou: 5.2
ET: 4.9
Jrue: 4.7
Iggy: 4.5
Thad 4.4
-
-
Meeks 2.0
ergo… more Meeks and less ET :)
Sorry, I could not resist (this is just for a laugh.)
tk76 - February 15, 2012
No problem, bro...
Although I do wonder if ET’s propensity when he is doing his passive-aggressive crap on offense (standing on the wing 25 feet from the basket) is because he is afraid that if he DOES drive to the basket and turn it over, it’s back to the bench for him. In his mind, a missed 20-footer is better than the possibility of a TO when driving to the rack…
(because for him, Boss rules do not apply)
bebopdeluxe - February 15, 2012
it would also increase the turnovers. Once again, we’re complaining about a team that is 20-9…I just don’t get it.
jefu - February 15, 2012
I don’t think a serious fan has to know their advanced stats. I have followed the Sixers closely for more than 25 years and have really only started looking behind the numbers for the past few years. I don’t think I was any less of a fan when I “only” watched the games. I watched Spoon/Barros and company play every game- so I think that qualifies as serious (or seriously misguided.)
Personally, I think advanced stats help me enjoy and appreciate the game more- but then again I am both a basketball person/player and a numbers guy. Probably a lot of fans feel the same way about following sports and gambling- they enjoy it more when they have something riding on the game. Fortunately, I never got into betting on sports.
In fact the biggest numbers guys are the original numbers guys (bookies.) They were looking at stats in search of an edge well before the Billy Beanes or Morleys came along. They could give a master class in analytics and break your kneecaps.
What I like about analytics is that it challenges me to see where my subjective view and the numbers collide. And when that happens I have to figure out if it’s a weakness in the stats or a blind spot in my minds eye view. But that does not mean another equally dedicated fan has to look at the numbers to appreciate the game.
It is sort of like drinking Beer or wine. You can really love to drink- and be quite serious about it without ever getting into high-brow concepts of brewing or being a vintner (believe me I see some “serious drinkers” who could care less about what went into creating their drink.) But there definitively is a subculture that lives for the craft as much as the actually drinking.
tk76 - February 15, 2012
This!
RickoT - February 15, 2012
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